Today again we had our usual discussion with Dr. Rao on the removal of splints, the growth of bone, its shadow in the X-ray picture, etc. After he had gone, the Mother asked Nirodbaran: "Up to what age can the skull-bone grow?" She said that she had seen cases where even at the age of fifty-five the skull had not completely ossified. "In such cases," she remarked, "the brain goes on developing." Then she departed for the general meditation.
There was very little prospect of conversation afterwards, for every time after Dr. Rao's visit we would keep revolving the same problem, the disagreement among doctors, and cut jokes about it. But a question by Satyendra, following a piece of information given by Purani, started the general ball rolling.
PURANI: X has been arrested.
SRI AUROBINDO (surprised): Really?
PURANI: He has been a leader from a very young age.
Satyeyndra (addressing Sri Aurobindo): Sir, you must have been very young too when you started the Nationalist movement.
SRI AUROBINDO: About thirty-three, though we were doing Swadeshi long before.
Satyeyndra : Did you begin your Yoga with the experience of Nirvana at Baroda?
SRI AUROBINDO: It was-somewhere about 1905. But I did have some other experiences before it. I felt an immense calm as soon as I landed in Bombay. Then there was the experience of the Self, the Purusha. I had these experiences when I had not yet begun Yoga and knew nothing about it. I was more or less an agnostic. Then I had two experiences of contact with the Infinite-one at Poona on the Parvati hills and the other on the Shankaracharya hill in Kashmir. Again, at Karnali, where there are many temples, I went to one of them and saw in an image of Kali the living Presence. After that, I came to believe in God.
NIRODBARAN: What led you to Yoga?
SRI AUROBINDO: What led me to Yoga? God knows what. It Was while at Baroda that Deshpande and others tried to convert me to Yoga. My idea about Yoga was that one had to retire into mountains and caves. I was not prepared to do that, for I was interested in working for the freedom of my country.
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Then I began to practise Pranayama—in 1905. A Baroda engineer who was a disciple of Brahmananda showed me how to do it and I started on my own. Some remarkable results came with it. First, I felt a sort of electricity all around me. Second, there were some visions of a minor kind. Third, I began to have a very rapid flow of poetry. Formerly I used to write with difficulty. For a time the flow would increase; then again it would dry up. Now it revived with astonishing vigour and I could write both prose and poetry at tremendous speed. This flow has never ceased. If I have not written much afterwards, it is because I had something else to do. But the moment I want to write, it is there. Fourth, it was at the time of the Pranayama practice that I began to put on flesh. Earlier I was very thin. My skin also began to be smooth and fair and there was a peculiar new substance in the saliva, owing to which these changes were probably taking place. Another curious thing I noticed was that whenever I used to sit for Pranayama, not a single mosquito would bite me, though plenty of mosquitoes were humming around. I took more and more to Pranayama; but there were no further results.
It was during this time that I adopted a vegetarian diet. That gave lightness and some purification.
NIRODBARAN: What about meat diet? Vivekananda advocated it.
SRI AUROBINDO: Meat is rajasic and gives a certain force and energy to the physical. That's why the Kshatriyas did not give up meat. Vivekananda advocated it to lift our people from Tamas (inertia) to Rajas (dynamism). He was not quite wrong.
Then I came into contact with a Naga Sannyasi. I told him I wanted to get power for revolutionary activities. He gave me a violent Mantra of Kali, with "Jahi.Jahi". to repeat. I did so, but, as I had expected, it came to nothing.
Barin at that time was trying some automatic writing. Once a spirit purporting to be that of my father came and made some prophecies. He said that he had once given a golden watch to Barin. Barin tried hard to remember and at last found that it was true. The spirit prophesied that Lord Curzon would shortly leave India: he saw him looking across a blue sea. At that time there was no chance at all of Curzon's going back. But the prophecy came true. Curzon had a row with Lord Kitchener and had to leave very shortly afterwards. The spirit also said that there was a
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picture of Hanuman on the wall of the house of Deodhar, who was present at the sitting. Deodhar tried to remember and said there was no such picture. When he went back, he asked his mother about it. She replied that the picture used to be there, but it had been plastered over. Lastly the spirit prophesied that when everybody had deserted us a man who was present there—meaning Tilak—would stand by us. This also came true.
On another occasion a spirit purporting to be that of Ramakrishna came and simply said, "Build a temple." At that time we were planning to build a temple for political Sannyasis and call it Bhawani Mandir. We thought he meant that, but later I understood it as "Make a temple within."
This gave me the final push to Yoga. I thought: great men could not have been after a chimera, and if there was such a more-than-human power why not get it and use it for action?
I had been to Bengal twice or thrice for political work. I found the workers quarrelling among themselves and got a little disappointed.
While I was residing at Baroda a Bengali Sannyasi came to see me and asked me to help him. financially. I did so. But I found that the man was extremely rajasic, jealous and boastful and could not tolerate anyone greater than himself. He used to curse everybody who was greater than him. Once he went to see Brahmananda. He began to curse him because he was so great. Shortly after, Brahmananda died of the prick of a nail. The Sannyasi took all the credit himself! What might have happened was that Brahmananda's death was near and this man got the suggestion of it from the subtle planes.
When I went to Bengal for political work, my Pranayama became very irregular. As a result I had a serious illness which nearly carried me off. Now I was at my wits' end. I did not know how to proceed further and was searching for some guidance. Then I met Lele in the top room of Sardar Majumdar's house.
After my separation from Lele, I had to rely on my inner guide. The inner guide led me through many mistakes. For days and days together I would follow wrong lines and come to know only at the end that it was all a mistake. At that time, I was making all sorts of experiments in order to see what truth there was in various methods.
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I fasted twice—once in Alipore jail and once here. The Alipore fasting gave more results than the second one. Though the fast lasted only ten days I lost ten pounds, whereas here the fast lasted twenty-three days but the loss of weight was less. At Alipore I was having tremendous visions which were all experiences on the vital plane. But as a part of my mind was critical I took them all with reservations. At Pondicherry I was walking eight hours a day while fasting.
DR. BECHARLAL: We have seen in the Guest House the floor marked by your walking at that time.
SRI AUROBINDO: The Guest House? Which room?
DR. BECHARLAL: Amal's room.
SRI AUROBINDO: No, no, no! I fasted in Shankar Chetty's house. Experiences on the vital plane are most exalting and exhilarating at the same time that they are most dangerous and terrible. There are many pitfalls and no reality.
Yogis living in the vital plane can't bring down those experiences into the physical. One can have some power, of course. But the forces of the vital plane take up a man like Hitler and make him do things. The man opens himself to the constant suggestions of these forces and believes they are the Truth. NB used to hear such suggestions which he called intuitions coming from the Mother. And when the Mother told him that it was not true he got angry and would not believe her. At last he had to leave the Ashram.
B was another case. He used to say that the Mother and I were there deep in his psychic being and these were the true Sri Aurobindo and the true Mother, while the physical Mother and Sri Aurobindo were false! The Mother repeatedly warned him about these illusions but he was so headstrong that he would not listen and had to go. We heard that he was making disciples in our name outside.
DR. BECHARLAL: How did he die so suddenly?
SRI AUROBINDO: Why suddenly? He was suffering from stomach-ache here, in spite of which he used to stuff himself with food. As long as he was here, somehow the protection kept him up. The Mother told him many times that if he left Pondy he would die. So when he went he passed the death-sentence on himself.
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Today till 7.00 p.m. there was complete silence. Nobody was in a mood to talk or at least to begin the talk. Seeing this, Sri Aurobindo remarked, "You seem disposed to meditative silence." Purani had gone out and, on returning, heard the remark. Sri Aurobindo, addressing him, said, "I was wondering where you had suddenly vanished." Purani replied "I went to see the Mother. I asked her if liquorice root could be tried for your cough. It is very good for it." After one or two questions from Sri Aurobindo about liquorice the talk got really started with a question by Purani.
PURANI: Is there any difference between the two methods of effacement of ego: realisation of the Spirit above and its nature of purity, knowledge, etc., and realisation of humility in the heart? Isn't it possible to get rid of egoism by the second method too?
SRI AUROBINDO: Egoism may go ... (Then after a short silence) Yes, egoism may go ...
We caught the significance of the unfinished sentence and said, "Oh, you mean ego may remain?"
SRI AUROBINDO: Ego remains but becomes harmless. It may help one spiritually. Complete removal of ego is possible when one identifies oneself with the Atman and realises the same Spirit in all. Also when the mental, vital and physical nature is known to be a derivation from the universal mental, vital and physical. The individual must realise also his identity with the transcendental or the cosmic Divine, whatever you may call it.
From the mental plane, when one rises and realises the Spirit, it is generally the mental sense of ego that goes, not the entire ego sense. The dynamic nature retains ego, especially the vital ego. When the psychic attitude of humility comes in and joins with it, it helps in getting rid of the vital ego.
The complete abolition of ego is not an easy thing. Even when you think that it is entirely gone, it suddenly comes into your actions and movements. Especially important is the removal of the mental and vital ego; the others, the physical and subconscient, don't matter very much: they can be dealt with at leisure, for they are not so absorbing.
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By humility it is not outward humility that is meant. There are many people who profess and show the utmost outward humility, as if they were nothing, but in their hearts they think, "I am the man" People are mostly impressed and guided by outward conduct.
Mahadev Desai complained that I had lost the old charm of modesty. I did not profess like others that I was nothing. How can I say I am nothing when I know that I am not nothing?
BECHARLAL: Were you "modest" in your early life?
SRI AUROBINDO: I used to practise what you may call voluntary self-effacement or self-denial and I liked to keep myself behind. Perhaps Desai meant that by modesty. But I can't say that I was more modest within than others.
PURANI: Gandhi also seems to express modesty. When he differs from Malaviya or somebody else, he says, "He is my superior but I differ."
SRI AUROBINDO: But does he really believe that? When I differed in anything, I used to say very few words and remain stiff, simply saying, "I don't agree."
Once Surendranath Banerji wanted to annex the Extremist Party and invited us to the U. P. Moderate Conference to fight against Sir Pherozshah Mehta. But there was a clause that no association that was not of two or three years' standing could send delegates to the Conference. Ours was a new party. So we could not go. But Banerji said, "We will elect you as delegates." J. L. Banerji and others agreed to it, but I just said, "No." I spoke at most twenty or thirty words and the whole thing failed. How can you call a man modest when he stands against his own party?
Tilak used to do the same thing. He used to hear all the speeches and resolutions of the delegates but at the end pass his own resolutions. They said, "What a democratic leader he is! He listens to and considers all our opinions and resolutions."
Then at the Hooghly Provincial Conference we met again to consider the Morley-Minto reforms. The Moderates argued in favour of accepting the reforms. We were against them. We were in the majority in the Subjects Committee, while in the Conference they were in the majority. Surendranath Banerji was very angry with us and threatened that he and his party would break away from the Conference if their resolution was not
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accepted. I didn't want them to break away at that time, for our party was still weak. So I said to him, "We will agree to your proposal on condition I am allowed to speak in the Conference." In the Conference there was a great row and confusion. In the midst of it Aswini Dutt began jumping up and saying, "This is life, this is life!" Banerji tried hard to control the people but failed and B became furious. Then I stood up and told them to be silent and to walk out silently. I said that whatever agreement we came to, we would inform them. Everybody became silent at once and walked out. This made Banerji still more furious. He said, "While we old leaders can't control them, this young man of hardly thirty commands them just by lifting a finger!"
He could not understand the power of a man standing for some principles and the people following the leader in obedience to those principles. The influence of the Moderates was mainly on the upper middle class, the moneyed people.
It was at that time that people began to get the sense of discipline and order and of obeying the leader. They were violent but at the command of the leader they obeyed. That paved the way for Gandhi.
The Conference at that time was a very tame affair. There was nothing to do but pass already framed resolutions. Nobody put in even an amendment.
Banerji had personal magnetism, was sweet-spoken and could get round anybody. He also tried to get round me by flattering, patting and caressing. His idea was to use the Extremists as the sword and use the Moderates for the public face. In private he would go as far as revolution. He wanted a provincial board of control of revolution. Barin once took a bomb to him. The name of Surendranath Banerji was found in the bomb case. But as soon as Norton pronounced the name there was a "Hush, hush" and he shut up.
Barin was preparing bombs at my place at Baroda, but I didn't know it. He got the formula from N. Dutt who was a very good chemist. He, Upen and Debabrata were very good writers too. They wrote in the jugantar.
Here Purani brought in the topic of Oundh State and described the reforms the chief of the State was introducing. They seemed to be something like Sri Aurobindo's own ideas.
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SRI AUROBINDO: What provision is there for autonomous government in villages?
PURANI: The village panchayats have considerable power.
SRI AUROBINDO: But suppose the people "want socialism or communism?
PURANI: The chief is introducing co-operative farming.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is an excellent thing. But dictatorship of the proletariat is different. On paper, of course, it sounds nice but it is quite a different matter in practice. Everyone is made to think alike. That is all very good in a church or religion, but a church or religion is voluntary: you can choose there but you can't choose your country. If you think alike, there can't be any progress. If you dare to differ from Stalin, you are liquidated. I don't understand how humanity can progress under such conditions.
Look at Hitler. After all, what do all his ideas come to except that the Germans are the best nation in the whole world and Hitler should be their leader; all Jews are wicked persons; all people on earth should become Nazis; and France must be crushed. That's all!
There was a little further talk and then somebody spoke of certain governments acting like robbers.
SRI AUROBINDO: Are not all governments robbers? Some do the robbing with legislation and some without. In some countries you have to pay fifty percent of your income as taxes and you manage with the rest as best you can. Customs is another robbery. What an amount of money they collect in this way and yet I don't understand what they do with such a huge income. France was complaining that the Government produces only two hundred fifty aeroplanes as compared to the thousand of Germany. England produces five hundred and yet England has a sufficiently honest administration. There was a question the other day in the House of Commons as to what they were doing with the money and how it was that they were still unready for war.
PURANI: I heard a story from a customs officer that even Princes join in smuggling. Recently a Prince was caught along with a jeweller.
SRI AUROBINDO: With such customs rules smuggling seems almost a virtue! It looks like robbing a robber. You must have heard that the Maharaja of Darbhanga had to pay Rs. 50,000 as
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duty on the necklace of Marie Antoinette which he had bought for one lakh.
Purani then brought in the question of the Congress ministry, saying that Nariman had been elected again as a Congress member by Vallabhai Patel. He had been punished for betrayal of Congress in the election campaign.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is not betrayal but indiscipline. Dr. Kher, the Bombay Premier, seems to be a solid man.
PURANI: The Congress ministry appears to be fairly successful everywhere except in C. P.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that is the weak point. Yet Nagpur was a very good centre for Extremists in our time.
PURANI: They are thinking of separating C. P. Hindustani , from C. P. Marathi.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that is the obvious step to take. I wonder why they did not take it before.
Purani told Nirodbaran to take the lead and said that if Nirodbaran had nothing to ask, he had a question ready. Nirodbaran told him he had one question to ask. So as soon as the Mother left and Sri Aurobindo was ready to talk, Nirodbaran began.
NIRODBARAN: Yesterday, did you mean, that by the psychic realisation one can't get rid of ego? I couldn't understand it.
SRI AUROBINDO: One can get rid of egoism but not of ego, For the psychic depends on the individual nature for its action. The lower nature has its hold on the individual and the psychic works through the individual. The psychic realisation is the realisation of the individual soul which feels itself as one in the many; your individuality is not lost in the realisation. The individual soul works in the mind and heart and other parts and purifies .them bringing in the realisation of devotion (Bhakti) and love. But the ego remains—it is the saint ego, the Bhakta ego, the ego of the Sadhu or the virtuous man: as Ramakrishna says, "Bhakta ami, das ami" ("Bhakta I, servant I") and Ramprasad says, "I want to eat
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sugar, not be sugar." The psychic of course opens the way to the realisation of the spiritual Self by -which the ego can go. By the realisation of the Spirit, you feel one -with the Divine and you see the One everywhere. The individual "I" is replaced by the Divine "I". The Spirit doesn't need the individual as the basis of action. Even so, it may be the abolition of the mental ego leaving the other parts to act in their own way. That is what is meant by allowing Prakriti to act in its own way till the death of the body takes place and when the body drops, it also drops. The psychic attitude has to come in to remove the ego from the vital and by the combination of the psychic and the spiritual realisations the ego can go.
I don't know if you have understood anything.
NIRODBARAN: Can both the realisations work together or must they be one after the other?
SRI AUROBINDO: In some, it may be the psychic that leads in the beginning, in others the spiritual. If it is the spiritual opening, then after some time it has to stop to bring the psychic element into the sadhana. Of course one can stop with the realisation in the mental plane, the psychic element not being necessary for it. But for complete transformation, both things are needed.
PURANI: In case of a weakening of the nervous envelope, can one replenish it by drawing the Force?
SRI AUROBINDO: Drawing from where? From the universal vital or from the Higher Force?
PURANI: The universal vital.
SRI AUROBINDO: Have you felt it?
PURANI: I mean drawing from the universal vital. That I felt while I was in the Guest House.
SRI AUROBINDO: You mean at the time when the sadhana has in the vital, that brilliant period?
PURANI: Yes; but now either due to lack of capacity or lack of will or some fear that drawing from that source may not be safe, I don't try.
SRI AUROBINDO: There is no harm in drawing from the universal vital. One can combine its action with that of the Higher Force.
If one is conscious of the nervous envelope and its weakening, one can put it right, replenish or increase its strength by any or both of the processes. But when you speak of lack of will, you must
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guard against any inertia of the being. At the time you speak of we were in the vital, the brilliant period of the Ashram. People were having brilliant experiences, a big push, energy, etc. If our Yoga had taken that line, we could have ended by establishing a great religion and bringing about a big creation. But our real work is different, so we had to come down into the physical, and working on the physical is like digging the ground; the physical is absolutely inert, dead like stone. When the work began there, all the former energies disappeared, the experiences stopped; if they came they didn't last. The progress is exceedingly slow. One rises, falls, rises again and falls again, constantly meeting with the suggestions of the Vedic Asuras, "You can't do anything, you are bound to fail." You have to go on working year after year, point after point, till you come to a central point in the subconscient which has to be conquered and it is the crux of the whole problem, hence exceedingly difficult. You know what Vivekananda said about the nature of man? That it is like a dog's tail. So long as you keep it straight, it is so; then as soon as you release it, it curves back. This point in the subconscient is the seed and it goes on sprouting and sprouting till you have cut out the seed. NIRODBARAN: We must thank the Creator for this gift! SRI AUROBINDO: It is the Ignorance and from this Ignorance the Divine is working things out. If it were not so, what would be the meaning of the play? This Yoga is like a path cut through a jungle and once the path is made, it will be easy for those who come afterwards. But before that it is a long-drawn-out battle. The more you gain in your strength, the greater becomes the resistance of the hostile forces. I myself had suggestion after suggestion that I wouldn't succeed. But I always remember the vision the Mother had. It was like this. The Mother, Richard and I were going somewhere. We saw Richard going down to a place from which rising was impossible. Then we found ourselves sitting in a carriage. The driver was taking it up and down a hill a number of times; at last he stopped on the highest peak. Its significance was quite clear to us. Satyeyndra: Will people who are newcomers have to go slowly too?
SRI AUROBINDO: Necessarily. The work being in the subconscient and the pressure on the physical, they will have to share the atmosphere — unless they isolate themselves from the atmosphere.
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There is a case of someone who made very good progress on the mental plane. He kept himself isolated- I mean inner isolation - from the atmosphere. But, as soon as he came to the vital, he couldn't go further, all his progress stopped. Satyeyndra: The Newcomers can't make any rapid progress in that case. SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? But, rapid progress is only possible when one keep's the right attitude, keep himself separate from all vital mixture. He must be able to fulfil the demands made on him. NIRODBARAN: I suppose people who come after will be more lucky, for by your victory over the subconscient things will be easier. SRI AUROBINDO: Maybe, in a way; but the demands may be more exiting. As regards Tapasya you can't deny that you had an easy time of it in the past. Satyeyndra: But when one enters into the subconscient, does one who has had some contact with the Brahman lose that contact entirely? SRI AUROBINDO: No, it is only apparently lost. Everything remains behind. But if he doesn't want to go further, his Yoga stops there. That's all. When the subconscient change has to come about, many will find it difficult. There will be some who will drop out because they do not fulfil the demands made on them. For instance Harin. At the beginning he was swimming in poetry and kept some old movements going. But as soon as the Mother decided that the sort of thing couldn't go on and his vital must change, he could not bear it and he dropped out. At one time, as I hinted you, the Mother was putting great pressure for a big push, as you know it is her nature to do. But no one could stand it; we thought whole thing would break. There was a great row in the vital. We had to withdraw. Of course we can do our work quicker, but how many will go through the ordeal? If the sadhaks had kept the right attitude at the time when the sadhana was in the vital, there would not have been so much difficulty today even in working out the subconscient. For with the force and power gained at that time, the Mother could have come down into the physical and done the work with greater ease.
But the sadhaks resisted the attempt and continued to make demands on the Mother. Instead of allowing the Mother to raise them up, they tried to bring her down to their own level and for a time we had to consent. And that meant a delay in the work. There
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are also people who have told the Mother that they understand the nature of their difficulty, see their mistakes but haven't the power to resist. There are others too who have thought that they have been able to get rid of plenty of things, that these things didn't exist in them any more, and -were much surprised to see them again coming up in their nature.
That is all due to the subconscient; you reject a thing from the mind, it goes into the vital, from there to the physical; and when you drive it out from there, it lodges in the subconscient. Anger, sex, jealousy, attachment find refuge there. One has to throw them out of the subconscient - as the Yogis say, cut the seed out. That is why transformation is necessary. Without transformation of the nature, the subconscient seed of these things remains.
NIRODBARAN: But I don't understand how they can rush up or remain after realisation of the Divine or complete union with Him. If you ask me what I mean by complete union, I won't be able to define it.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is precisely what I will ask you.
NIRODBARAN: Take, for instance, Ramakrishna's case. never heard of any sex impulse rising in him.
SRI AUROBINDO: You didn't hear of his praying to Mother that the sex impulse must not come to him? He told if it did, he would take his life.
NIRODBARAN: But that was at the beginning.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; but the Mother or Cosmic Force didn't send the Kama any more.
NIRODBARAN: You mean it was in the subconscient.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, of course. If it had come up, he would have rejected it.
NIRODBARAN: Then if rejection is possible, why bother so much about transformation and all that?
SRI AUROBINDO: Ramakrishna is Ramakrishna. I bother because everybody is not Ramakrishna. Haven't you heard of many Yogis and Rishis falling from the path owing to these impulses?
I was suffering from some intermittent fever in the North for a long time. It continued here also. In the course of the fever someone above or something within me said, "No more fever," Something in my being accepted the suggestion and there was no fever! But not everybody can do it.
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Human nature is an extremely difficult business. I told you that my experience of calm and Nirvana has never left me but I had to work and work to establish that calm and equanimity in every part of my being. You know what is equanimity? It means that nothing stirs under any condition. Till last August I was successful. This accident was perhaps the last test of my equanimity. In that way one has to go on working things out till one reaches the central point in the subconscient which is the seed one has to cut out.
It is while working in this way that I came to notice many gaps that had not been filled up. It may be due to those gaps that the accident took place. When one has conquered that subconscient seed, a force will be established in the world-action and those who embody it will be able to throw it around them like waves for the change.
NIRODBARAN: I hope you are making rapid progress now.
SRI AUROBINDO: It looked as if I was, till the moment of the dent. When one comes into contact with a large Force, the progress is very rapid; but it is extremely difficult to get. It is peculiar that in a lying position I can't draw down the maximum Force, can't exert the highest Force which never fails. That Force is sure in its action even though temporary. But lying down I can't use it, perhaps because this is a tamasic position, a position of relaxation or rest, and I am not used to it. I get the highest Force walking or sitting. With this cough, for instance, I felt too lazy to apply any Force. Only when it became annoying did I do it.
NIRODBARAN: Is there any truth in the demand for an erect position in meditation? People here assume all sorts of postures.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the erect posture helps in the meditation. Whatever one receives in the subtle body is easy to transmit both physical through that posture. There are so many Asanas and one can get the right position, then the body doesn't move.
NIRODBARAN: The Mother's body also stoops down in meditation
SRI AUROBINDO: Her body is very plastic. It changes according to the nature of the meditation. You know, formerly her appearance used to change.
NIRODBARAN : X, we hear, is obliged to get up when the light comes down into his body. .
SRI AUROBINDO: That means he can't hold the power when it comes.
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Tonight we were at a loss how to begin. But we saw that Sri Aurobindo was ready; he was as if inviting us by his look. But none could break forth; we seemed to have exhausted all our questions. In that puzzled mood; Nirodbaran once looked up and Sri Aurobindo looked at him. Suddenly Nirodbaran burst into laughter and the rest joined in. Finding an opening or an inspiration, Purani began.
PURANI: There is something interesting about snoring in the Sunday Times today. Someone says that snoring is the reaction of the subconscient against some pressure one does not like.
SRI AUROBINDO: Nonsense! Does it mean that a man snores because he is protesting against someone's presence he doesn't like? Or that one can't snore unless there is someone present whom one doesn't like?
NIRODBARAN (to Purani): Were you attracted by that question because of our snoring?
PURANI: Yes, especially yours, I believe; whenever I come, find you snoring. .
Satyeyndra: That means Nirodbaran doesn't like your presence!
CHAMPAKLAL: No, he snores even long before.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is perhaps in anticipation of Purani's arrival. (Laughter)
As the talk on snoring didn't proceed further, Purani began quoting from the Sunday Times about Middleton Murry, where it was said that he had come to believe in Gandhi's non-violence and that because of Hitler he had become a believer in God.
SRI AUROBINDO: How is that?
PURANI: I don't know; he says he finds Hitler an anti-Christ after that murder of eighty people in one night.
SRI AUROBINDO: Wasn't Murry a mystic long before Hitler's regime? Does he mean that his faith has become stronger?
PURANI: Maybe. Gandhi writes that the non-violence tried by some people in Germany has failed because it has not been strong enough to generate sufficient heat to melt Hitler's heart. .
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SRI AUROBINDO: It would have to be a furnace in that case. The only way to melt his heart is to bomb it out of existence. Then his sentimental being which cries at the tomb of his mother and expresses itself in painting —
NIRODBARAN: Are you referring to his "London-cabman psychic", as you once put it?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that would then have a chance in his next life. It is surprising how sentimental people can be extremely cruel.
The trouble with Gandhi is that he has dealt only with Englishmen. If he had been obliged to deal with Germans or Russians his non-violence would have had much less chance. The English people like to be at ease with their conscience. They have a certain self-esteem, and they prize the esteem of the world also. Not that they are not sentimental; only they don't show it. The Russians and Germans are also sentimental but at the same time more cruel. Today a Russian may knock your head through the window-pane but tomorrow he may weep and embrace you. Englishmen also can be very cruel—for a time—but they can't go on with a persistent brutality. Hitler has cruelty in his blood.
NIRODBARAN: Englishmen seem also to appreciate a man standing up to their violence.
PURANI: I know of a case where a Punjabi settled in Fiji gave a fierce beating to an Englishman. The latter used to harass him. One day when it became unbearable, he caught hold of him, knocked him down and began beating him. After some time the Englishman shouted, "That will do, that will do." From that time on, he was all right.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is quite true. I remember once going to a station to see Deshpande off. In his carriage there were many Englishmen. He told us afterwards that as soon as he sat down, the Englishmen said, "We will beat you if you don't get out." He replied, "Come and try." And they didn't dare!
At one time, before the Swadeshi movement, our people were terribly afraid of these Europeans. But after that movement the fear ceased and it has not come back. It was a sudden transformation. Once in Howrah station, a young man was being bullied by an Englishman. He suddenly shouted, "Bande Mataram"; all the people in the train began to shout and the Englishman became alarmed.
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You have heard of Shamakanta, the tiger-tamer. He was travelling in a compartment with some English soldiers and a Bengali with his wife. The soldiers began to molest the Bengali's wife; he was so afraid that he did not know what to do. Shamakanta got up, caught hold of the soldiers and began to knock their heads against each other. At the next station they walked out.
I remember once when we were practising shooting, there was a middle-aged Bengali in the company. When he was asked to shoot, he became very nervous, said he didn't know how to shoot, closed his eyes and then fired. After firing, he opened his eyes, smiled and said, "I didn't know it was so easy!"
When my brother Barin and I were at Baidyanath, we used to go out with guns to shoot at birds, obviously with the idea of practising. My auntie saw us and said, "These two boys will be hanged." The prophecy almost came true, for Barin got a death-sentence.
Before the Swadeshi movement started, Debabrata Bose and I went on a tour of Bengal to study the conditions of the people. We lived simply on bananas. Debabrata Bose was very persuasive and could win anybody round. We found the country pessimistic, with a black weight of darkness over it. Only four or five of us stood for independence. We had great difficulty in convincing people. At Khulna we were given a royal reception, with plenty of dishes on the table. I was not known as a political leader but as the son of my father, K. D. Ghose. My father had been the all-powerful man there There was nobody who hadn't received some benefit from him and none had returned from his door empty-handed. He was said to have been a great friend of the poor. Previous to Khulna, my father was at Rangpur. There also he was like a king. The magistrate, who was his friend, did nothing without consulting him. It was with the friends of this magistrate — the Drewetts — that we stayed in England The magistrate was transferred and a new magistrate came in his place. He found that he had no authority in the town, all power being in the hands of my father. He couldn't tolerate it. He asked the Government to transfer my father and that is the reason he came to Khulana. But he was hurt by this treatment and lost his previous respect for the English people and turned into a nationalist.
DR. BECHARLAL: You must have lived only a short time with your father.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; only the early years. When I was seven we left for England and before we returned he had died. I was in a
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way the cause of his death. He was suffering from heart disease. Grindlays informed him that I was to start on a particular steamer. The steamer went down off the coast of Portugal and many lives were lost. Somehow I didn't sail by that ship but Grindlays didn't know it. They telegraphed the news to my father and he died on receiving it.
He had great hopes for his sons, expected us to be civil servants, and yet he could be quite reasonable. When Manmohan wrote to him that he wanted to be a poet, my father made no objection; he said there was nothing wrong in that. Only, he didn't send any more money.
NIRODBARAN: We have heard that your father was irregular in sending your allowances.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; we lived for one year on five shillings a week which my eldest brother was getting by helping the secretary of South Kensington Liberal Club, who was a brother of Sir Henry Cotton. We didn't have winter coats. We used to take tea, bread and ham in the morning and some sausages in the evening. Manmohan could not undergo that hardship, so he went to a boarding house where he managed to get his food, though he had no money to pay. Once when I was unable to pay the college dues, the principal called for me; I told him that my father had not sent my allowance. He sent a letter to my father. On receiving it my father sent me just the amount of the college dues and a lecture on my extravagance. It pained me to a certain extent, as we were living on such a meagre sum. Manmohan was extravagant, if you like.
When I went to Cambridge, I was introduced to a tailor who made suits for me on credit. When I returned to London, he traced me there and got introduced to Manmohan also. Manmohan got a red velvet suit made—not staring red, but aesthetic. He used to go see Oscar Wilde in that suit. When we came back to India, that tailor wrote to the Indian Government about the arrears that Manmohan had not paid and to the Baroda Maharaja for my arrears. I paid everything except four pounds, five shillings, which I thought I was justified in not paying as he had charged double the amount for our suits. The Baroda Maharaja said I had better pay.
Manmohan used to have poetic illness at times. Once we were walking through Cumberland. We found that he had fallen half a mile behind, walking at a leisurely pace and moaning out poetry in a deep tone. There was a dangerous place in front of us, so we shouted at him to come back. But he took no heed, went on
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muttering the lines and came to us with his usual leisurely steps. When he came to India, his playing the poet dropped off.
When Barin and I became politically famous, Manmohan used to say with arrogant pride, "There are only two and a half men in India. The two are my brothers and the half is Tilak."
Manmohan and I used to quarrel pretty often but I got on very well with my eldest brother. Once Manmohan said to me, "I hear you have been living with Madhavrao Jadhav. year after year." "Why not?" I said. "How could you do that?" he asked, "I could not live for six months without quarrelling with him."
We all forgot ourselves rolling with laughter and forgot all about the time. In the midst of our hilarity Sri Aurobindo said, "The Mother is coming." We all stopped laughing and stood up but couldn't check our outburst. On seeing us, the Mother also began to smile.
The Mother (to Sri Aurobindo): What are you laughing about so much?
SRI AUROBINDO: Nothing of importance. I was speaking about my poet-brother.
When the Mother had left, there was not much further conversation.
NIRODBARAN: What about your eldest brother?
SRI AUROBINDO: He went up for medicine but couldn't go on. He returned to India and got a job in Coochbehar. Now I hear he has come back to Calcutta. He is a very practical man, the opposite of poetic, and takes more after my father. He is a very nice man and one can easily get on with him.
In the evening Dr. Rao came and unconsciously broke his promise not to speak about removal of splints. Then the usual discussion followed and the differences of opinion among doctors were commented on. After Dr. Rao had departed Sri Aurobindo started the conversation.
SRI AUROBINDO: Two doctors coming to quite different conclusions from the same data!
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Satyeyndra: Doctors are not cutting a very brilliant figure and yet one has to take their help.
SRI AUROBINDO: According to Gandhi, doctors are agents of the devil.
NIRODBARAN: Yet he had to be operated on for appendicitis.
There followed a discussion on Gandhi, his experiments with diet, with food consisting of the five elements, with raw food and how he came to the point of death by these experiments, etc.
PURANI: Formerly he was not taking garlic. Dr. Ansari prescribed garlic for his blood-pressure and he had good results. Then Gandhi began to advise everyone to take garlic.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; in whatever he takes up, he goes the whole hog. If it is celibacy, all must observe celibacy. When somebody asked him how the world was to go on in that case, he said that it was none of his business.
Here came in talk about the researches of science to create life by artificial means and to find a suitable medium for keeping sperm for a long period.
SRI AUROBINDO: You mean that a man of the present time could have a child from a woman, say, five hundred years later? (Laughter)
Satyeyndra: Talking of procreation, what will be the place of it when the Supermind comes?
SRI AUROBINDO: Let us leave it to the Supermind to decide when it comes down.
But is procreation necessary in the supramental creation? The whole of mankind is not going to be supramentalised; so there will be plenty of people left for that purpose.
NIRODBARAN: Is it possible to create Manasaputra ("mind- child") by will-power?
SRI AUROBINDO: Anything is possible under proper conditions.
NIRODBARAN: I am afraid that is like the Maharshi's reply: "The Divine Grace can do everything." (Laughter)
SRI AUROBINDO: But it is true in principle.
NIRODBARAN: The question is whether proper conditions would be possible.
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SRI AUROBINDO: It depends. If man, instead of living on the basis of his animality and outward nature, lived in his inner being and acquired its powers, then things like this would be possible. Such things are now mystical or magical or extraordinary because man has been looking at them from his present poise. They are mysterious because they are exceptional. But if, just as people are advancing in physical science and trying to explore every possible secret of Nature, they also went into the inner being and tapped the powers of the unusual ranges of Nature, there would be no limit to the possibilities. Things like telegraphy, wireless, etc., would not be necessary; one could dispense with the whole machinery because it would be quite possible to communicate telepathically with a person in America through a subtle medium. Even one's death would no longer be like that of an ordinary man. One could go whenever one wanted.
NIRODBARAN: They say that after the Supermind's descent there won't be any death.
SRI AUROBINDO: Do you mean to say that one will have to remain till Doomsday and then walk into the presence of the Creator? Perhaps, one may choose not to go away till one finds another to take one's place.
Satyeyndra: They say Ashwatthama is still alive.
SRI AUROBINDO: What is he doing? Wandering about in jungles?
Satyeyndra: There are five immortals, they say. Hanuman is one.
SRI AUROBINDO: That may be possible considering the length of his tail which even Bhima could not raise!
Here Purani brought in the topic of the Mahabharata, mention G. Ram's interpretation of that poem as symbolic, Bhima symbolising military genius and Draupadi...
SRI AUROBINDO: Nonsense! It is something like Byron's joke on Dante's Divine Comedy, that Beatrice was a mathematical figure.
PURANI: Critics say that in the future the epic will be more and more subjective.
SRI AUROBINDO: It looks like that. The idea has always been that an epic requires a story. But now it seems to have been
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exhausted. Besides, there is the demand of the present time for subjectivity and the epic too will have to answer it.
PURANI: Some maintain that as there is no story in the Divine Comedy, it is not an epic.
SRI AUROBINDO: It is certainly an epic. Paradise Lost has very little story in it and very few incidents. Yet it is an epic.
PURANI: Some think that Keats' Hyperion would have been as great as Milton's poem if he had finished it.
SRI AUROBINDO: Well, if the whole had been as great as the first part, then it would have been equal to Milton's work. But I doubt if Keats could have kept up that sustained height, for I find that he already declined in the second part. As soon as he began to put in his subjective ideas at the end of the first part, he could not :keep up that height.
PURANI: There is an idea that the new form may be a combination of epic and drama or like the odes of Meredith on the French Revolution. They give some clue to a possible epic form in the future.
SRI AUROBINDO: There has been such an effort by Victor Hugo. His Legendes des siecles is an epic in conception, thought, tone and movement. It is the only epic in French. But as yet, I think, it has not been given its proper place. It does not deal with a story but with episodes.
PURANI: It is a pity Tagore has not written an epic.
SRI AUROBINDO: Tagore? He has not the epic mind. But he has written some very fine narrative poems.
A few of William Morris' narratives are also very fine—his Sigurd ihe Volsung and Earthly Paradise, especially the latter. I read them a number of times in my early days. There is a tendency to belittle him, because he wrote about the Middle Ages and Romanticism, I suppose.
NIRODBARAN: You said the other day there has not been any successful blank verse in England after Shakespeare and Milton. What about Shelley's Prometheus Unbound?
SRI AUROBINDO: I didn't say there is no successful blank verse. Plenty of people have written successfully, such as Byron, Matthew Arnold in Sohrab and Rustom and some others. But there are only three who have written great blank verse: Milton, Shakespeare and Keats.
NIRODBARAN: What about Harin?
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SRI AUROBINDO: I don't think he has written anything wonderfull in blank verse.
NIRODBARAN: And Amal?
SRI AUROBINDO: The trouble with him is that he has a strain of what may be called post-Victorian. I had great difficulty knocking it out. I had to screw and screw him up to get right form. I had to send back his poems many times, suggesting corrections and alterations here and there till he got the right thing Now? he has fallen back to his post-Victorian in Bombay. He sent me a poem from there the other day.
The trouble in general with Indian poets writing in English that they may be successful poets but it is not as if the very man spoke. Their work gives the impression of one who has studied English literature and spun out something. I read Jehangir Vakil's poem. The same difficulty. Mrs. Naidu wrote something fine at times and she had a power of expression but her range was small.
Harin and Amal have been thinking and speaking in English since childhood. So for them writing in it is comparatively easy. Harin has from the very beginning always been original. There are several reasons why he is not appreciated in England. Firstly, he is an Indian. If he published anonymously, say, under the name "John Turner", he would have a better chance. Even so, he got high appreciation from critics like Binyon.
Secondly, his poetry can be appreciated by those who have not lost the thread of English poetry since the Victorian period. Poetry is not read in England nowadays, I hear.
One can also gather this from what was said about my poetry. Some of my recent poems were sent to the editor of an English publishing firm. He said, "They are remarkable and there is some thing new in them. But I would not advise him to publish them. For poetry is not read nowadays. If he has written anything in prose, it is better to publish it first and then the poems may go down with the public."
It is no wonder that people don't read poetry these days: the Modernists are responsible for it, I suppose.
NIRODBARAN: Harin's poems were sent to Masefield?.
SRI AUROBINDO: Why to Masefield?
NIRODBARAN: Perhaps because he is the poet-laureate.
SRI AUROBINDO: Poet-laureate! Anybody can be a poet laureate. The only people of real worth to whom the title was
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given were Tennyson and Wordsworth. Masefield's poems are Georgian, full of rhetoric.
PURANI: Thompson asked me to read the poems of Eliot. He was in ecstasy over them. I read them. I couldn't find anything there. Neither in Ezra Pound. I asked Amal's opinion.
SRI AUROBINDO: What did he say?
PURANI: He is of the same view. He cut a fine joke on Ezra Pound: "His name is Pound but he is not worth a penny."(laughter)
SRI AUROBINDO: Eliot is the pioneer of modem poetry. I have not read much of him. Do you know the definition of a modern poet?: "A modern poet is one -who understands his own poems and is understood by a few of his admirers."
NIRODBARAN: Eliot has written a poem "Hippopotamus," which is supposed to be very fine.
PURANI: Hippopotamus the animal?
SRI AUROBINDO: I thought he had written about himself. (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: The modem young poets of Bengal seem to like him very much.
SRI AUROBINDO: Because he is the fashion, I suppose.
NIRODBARAN: You have written an epic called Aeneid?
SRI AUROBINDO: No, Ilion: it is in hexameter and about the end of the siege of Troy.
NIRODBARAN: What about Radhanand's poetry? He writes in French also.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, his French poetry is very good. The Mother likes it; there is imagination and beauty. Of course, she corrects the poems. He is a stupendous writer with great energy. He has written two hundred books in six months. He has written about my life also. I had a great tussle with him not to have it published. He is very popular with the Tamils. He is supposed to be as great a poet as Bharati. His prose is rather rhetorical.
NIRODBARAN: Toru Dutt is said to have had great genius. They say that if she had lived she would have been a very great poet.
SRI AUROBINDO: Nobody in England thinks other as a great poet. Perhaps the only vigorous poetry she wrote was about the German invasion of France in 1870. That was because she had a
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deep sympathy for that country. I remember just a few lines from it.. She addresses France as the "Plead of the human column" she calls the invaders "Attila's own exultant horde". These two lines at once strike one as if they were spoken by the poet and were not an imitation. If one can write like that, it cannot recognise.
NIRODBARAN: What about Madhusudhan?
SRI AUROBINDO: I read only one poem of his and the imitation of Byron.
Not dead,—oh no,—she cannot die!
Only a swoon from loss of blood!
Levite, England passes her by,
Help, Samaritan! none is nigh;
Who shall stanch me this sanguine flood?
Range the brown hair, it blinds her eyes,
Dash cold water over her face!
Drowned in her blood, she makes no sign,
Give her a draught of generous wine.
None heed, none hear, to do this grace.
Head of the human column, thus
Ever in swoon wilt thou remain?
Thought, Freedom, Truth, quenched ominous,
Whence then shall Hope arise for us,
Plunged in the darkness all again?
No, she stirs!-There's fire in her glance,
Ware, oh ware of that broken sword!
What, dare ye for an hour's mischance,
Gather around her, jeering France,
Attila's own exultant horde?
Lo, she stands up, - stands up e'en now,
Strong once more for the battle-fray,
Gleams bright the star, that from her brow
Lightens the world. Bow, nations, bow,
Let her again lead on the way!
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